Help with track wiring.

[andy757]

If anyone lives near Halstead, Essex, and can help me with track wiring, please let me know. I simply need someone to wire up the tracks to my 2 controllers so that it all works :D

Layout diagram is available, but it is a simple design in DC. Two gaugemaster controllers.

Thanks

[Flashbang]

Hi
Post a drawing of your track plan and I'll guide you.
Please advise what controller(s) you're going to be using and any other information that may be helpful - such as an isolating sections needed etc.

[andy757]

Flashbang.

I'd rather someone actually come and do it rather than guide me over the tinternet :D

[Flashbang]

Hi
You could P.M. me and I'll guide you step by step.
Its really much easier than you think!
Find someone local via forum may not be that easy?
If you really don't want advice like I'm offering could you not join a local model railway club where the members will always be willing to help (Not only with wiring!)

[andy757]

Your signature Broken? It was working when I left it!
sums up the problem I have.

Two weeks ago I went to Spain and everything track wise was working fine. Come back home, and now only part of the layout works !! Points are thrown in the correct direction and the trains used to run perfect. Now though, they don't !!!

[Flashbang]

Hi
Oh dear!!!
Normally things that are working well last time and then appear to stop working for an unknown reason or only partially work at the next powering up session can often be traced to something that has happened on the layout between the last known working correctly time and the present time. i.e. Some layout reworking has occurred, moving of the layout and knocking something off or even leaving metal tools shorting the rails are perhaps the three most likely causes.

Test in a logical step by step fashion. A simple 12 volt lamp with two wire ends or a multimeter are the ideal testing tools. Disconnect all rail feeds at the controller(s). Turn on controller(s) and with the test lamp or the multimeter set onto its 20volts dc range connect them across the 'Track' output terminals. Turn up the controller. Does the lamp light or meter show a reading etc. If so, at this stage the controllers are working correctly. Obviously if no reading on the meter or the lamp isnt lit the controller is not outputting and it may need replacing once further investigated.
Assuming all is ok with the controller(s) then turn off and reconnect track feed wires. Turn back on controller(s) and turn up their power. Now test across the rails where the power wires connect. Again the lamp should illuminate or the meter show a reading. If not, the the problem is between the controller and the rails. Check wiring, wires themselves and all connections are correct and 100%. If power is correct at the rails proceed track section by track section around the layout testing across the rails at each new section. Every time the lamp should light or the meter show the reading obtained at the input place. If at any section the lamp fails to light or is noticeably dimmer or the meter shows none or a much reduced reading then the problem is at the rail joints entering that section.

Proceed around the layout in the logical testing fashion. Eventually ending up back at the input power section where you started.

[andy757]

Test in a logical step by step fashion. A simple 12 volt lamp with two wire ends or a multimeter are the ideal testing tools. Disconnect all rail feeds at the controller(s). Turn on controller(s) and with the test lamp or the multimeter set onto its 20volts dc range connect them across the 'Track' output terminals. Turn up the controller. Does the lamp light or meter show a reading etc. If so, at this stage the controllers are working correctly. Obviously if no reading on the meter or the lamp isnt lit the controller is not outputting and it may need replacing once further investigated.

This is why I would like someone to come and wire this for me as I do not have the time, the tools mentioned above, nor the inclination to do it myself. Someone with all the above would do this in a matter of no time at all and for me, that's money well spent. I am not technically or electronically minded but for someone who is, this request would be a doddle :)

[Hamilton]

Test in a logical step by step fashion. A simple 12 volt lamp with two wire ends or a multimeter are the ideal testing tools. Disconnect all rail feeds at the controller(s). Turn on controller(s) and with the test lamp or the multimeter set onto its 20volts dc range connect them across the 'Track' output terminals. Turn up the controller. Does the lamp light or meter show a reading etc. If so, at this stage the controllers are working correctly. Obviously if no reading on the meter or the lamp isnt lit the controller is not outputting and it may need replacing once further investigated.

This is why I would like someone to come and wire this for me as I do not have the time, the tools mentioned above, nor the inclination to do it myself. Someone with all the above would do this in a matter of no time at all and for me, that's money well spent. I am not technically or electronically minded but for someone who is, this request would be a doddle :)

I do not dare post what I am thinking here! But Flashbang is wasting his time!
Jim.

[alfaz-di-pi]

Hi Andy 757, we have all had the same symptoms as you at one time or another, and to be honest, it is part of the modelling world to be able to put it right again. I can see your point, it is time consuming, but model railways are, and the only way to get things fixed quickly is to be able to fix it yourself. Once you get the hang of of what went wrong, and there are numerous things that can go wrong, you will soon be able to deduce the logical steps to take to correct the problem.
Not what you want to hear I have no doubt, but it is the best way to learn.

Regards
Albert.

[Flashbang]

Hi
I never waste my time and any advice given is freely done and in good faith and hopefully accepted as that!

Model railways are a great hobby and a real learning place for all sorts of basic skills.
Which means you don't have to be fully skilled to use them, but time taken to understand each a small bit will always stand the modeller in good stead for many future tasks, in many non model railway situations or places too!
Carpentry skills used when making the baseboard.
Track laying skill use of dexterity and use of pin hammers and such.
Wiring skill the basic understanding of electricity and what happens if you short two wires together or don't connect them correctly etc.
Painting skill, whether this is a layout back scene, the actual baseboard or painting buildings or other models - people etc its still another learnt skill.
There are many others too.

So asking someone to help is useful if you partake too, but to get them to do it all without helping or trying to understand isn't learning at all and its very possible the problem(s) will only reoccur later!

The simple task of taking a 12 volt lamp (Grain of Rice or Grain of Wheat etc lamp) with two leads and placing the bared ends of the two leads onto the controllers output track terminals and then turning up the controller to light the lamp cant be hard? But is a simple testing skill quickly learnt! Which can be repeated then at the rails.

[andy757]

I am perfectly capable of everything related to model railways except the electrical bits. I have my reasons for wanting to avoid "getting involved" and would rather have someone do this part for me.

Is that such a bad thing ?

[andy757]

Help or tips need !

Wiring not being my specialised subject, I got someone to help and all was going to plan.

Street lights work fine. I have linked a 12v lamp in a signal box, to the street light circuit and now have the signal box lit up, all works fine. So, I thought I would link another 12v lamp for another signal box on the far side of the layout. This lamp lights up fine, but only when the other lamps are off. In other words, turn on the street lights and a signal box lamp comes on, which is good but the other signal box lamp does not come on until the switch is turned “off”. The lamp then comes on but the street lights and other signal box go off.

Why is that ??

The 2nd signal box is wired via the same swicth that controls the other box and street lights.

[alfaz-di-pi]

Are the wires reversed.
Albert.

[Flashbang]

Hi Andy
Where did you connect the new lights feed wire?
Did you connect it onto the same tag on the switch that the other wire is connected onto that leads off to the first set of lights?
Or did you connect the new wire to the other end wiring tag on the switch - That's assuming the switch has three wiring connections - Centre feed and two switch connections. If so this is why one set of lights is On and the other set Off, then reverses around when the switch is thrown the opposite way.
Moving the new wire onto the same wiring tag on the switch as the first wire that feeds the original lights will cure this.

Or have you wired it some other way?

[andy757]

Alfaz - wires are not reversed.

Flashbang - feed for the new lamp is taken from the existing feed (which feeds all the other light switches). Each switch has two connectors one being mains feed. I'll sketch out how it is wired and upload it for comment, hopefully today.

[andy757]

lets see if this diagram uploads :confused:

[Flashbang]

Hi Andy
Your lighting and its switch needs to be wired like this drawing.
It shows the all the wiring and how the switches terminals need connecting.

[andy757]

Today, I thought I would make a start on wiring the points.

Wired as per diagram that came with a new CDU (heavy duty one) that I got recently. Set a point motor up on the bench as a test, wired it to a switch on the panel, vai the CDU as per diagram, and it worked fine in both directions.

I then wired a point from under the board and it switches fine in one direction but not the other. I thought maybe the motor was faulty, so I wired another motor under the board, same problem. So, I thought maybe the switch is faulty. Changed the switch, same problem. I went back to the motor on the test bench, it works fine.

WHY ?????

[Robotstar5]

Well you've proved the motor's OK so it must be the wiring from control panel to terminal block/socket for motor. You need to do a continuity test on the wires one at a time, bound to be one broken/missing/crossed over etc.

[Flashbang]

Hi
It could also be due to the point motor not fitted correctly to the point itself? i.e. Its not in direct alignment with the points moving tie bar (moving stretcher bar) or binding on the baseboard in one direction?

More info is really needed...
A) What point motors are being used?
B) What wire size have you used throughout - CDU to switches - Switches to motors. Motors to CDU return?
C) When the motor is lifted off the point and still wired does it then operate over and back correctly every time?
D) The switches being used... Are the sprung to centre off type?

[andy757]

a. SEEP motors
b. Wire from a model shop, no idea what grade.
c. Didn't try testing off the board but will do.
d. Sprung to centre switches used.

When tested on 2 switches in situ, the point snapped across really well, but as I said, only in one direction. Maybe adjustment needed but they move in the opposite direction by hand ok.

[alfaz-di-pi]

Hi Andy, I am following your thread with interest, as I will be doing some testing with point motors myself soon.

Albert.

[BerkshireBugsy]

a. SEEP motors
b. Wire from a model shop, no idea what grade.
c. Didn't try testing off the board but will do.
d. Sprung to centre switches used.

When tested on 2 switches in situ, the point snapped across really well, but as I said, only in one direction. Maybe adjustment needed but they move in the opposite direction by hand ok.

Hi Andy, if I read you right you are having the same problem wth two different point motors, is this correct? I think testing off the board will be important as it will eliminate and problems caused by the points them selves or the mounting of the seeps on the board

If the seeps are controlled by dc (as opposed to dcc) are you using a CDU to boost the supply to the seeps?

That's enough questions for now !

[andy757]

I set up a motor on the test bench. Wired it as per diagram supplied with the motor (SEEP). On the bench, and wired via a switch on the panel, it works as expected and in both directions.

Following the wiring logic to the motors in situ on the board, I wired point number 1 on my diagram. Flicked the switch, points throw nicely. Flick the switch in the other direction, nothing - silence !

Moved the same wiring logic to point number 13 - opposite side of the layout, same happened. Points throw nicely in one direction, but not the other.

I then went back to the test motor on the bench, wired it again and it worked perfectly in both directions.

I have wired the heavy duty CDU as per the diagram that came with it. Power is fed to the switches from the CDU, again, as per diagram.

All 13 points are "daisy chained" with live feed back to the CDU and the tails from the motor are fed to the relevant switch. It all works fine, but only in one direction.

I will scan the wiring diagram that came with the CDU and post it here.

[BerkshireBugsy]

I set up a motor on the test bench. Wired it as per diagram supplied with the motor (SEEP). On the bench, and wired via a switch on the panel, it works as expected and in both directions.

Following the wiring logic to the motors in situ on the board, I wired point number 1 on my diagram. Flicked the switch, points throw nicely. Flick the switch in the other direction, nothing - silence !

Moved the same wiring logic to point number 13 - opposite side of the layout, same happened. Points throw nicely in one direction, but not the other.

I then went back to the test motor on the bench, wired it again and it worked perfectly in both directions.

I have wired the heavy duty CDU as per the diagram that came with it. Power is fed to the switches from the CDU, again, as per diagram.

All 13 points are "daisy chained" with live feed back to the CDU and the tails from the motor are fed to the relevant switch. It all works fine, but only in one direction.

I will scan the wiring diagram that came with the CDU and post it here.

Ok Silly question time! If you unscrew the working Seep from the board and leave the wiring in place does it then function correctly? If you follow the Seep instructions exactly they recommend using a slot for the motor "pole" to pass through from under the board - is that what you are doing? I am thinking if drilling a 10 mm hole as it seems easier and less prone to error!

P.S. I think the wiring diagram will be worth seing. I am curious about the phrase "daisy chained" !

Dave

[andy757]

Hi Dave

One thing I haven't tried yet is to remove the motor from the underside of the board with wires in situ. I will do that as soon as I can, but maybe not today as I have my day job to do (aircraft)....

I already drilled large enough slots for the pin to go through and I know there is plenty of gap for the pin to travel when the points are thrown. As I said, the two points tested so far from the board, travel in one direction but not the other. Swap the wires over at the switch, and they travel fine in the opposite direction, but not the other.

To explain "daisy chain", I've attached a little drawing. I was advised on here that I could feed all switches with a common 16v lead instead of wiring each switch individually with 16v.

I have also attached the diagram as supplied with the CDU so if someone wants to draw their own diagram over it with my colour coding, feel free.

My colour code from the motor is red/black/white. Red being 16v and "daisy chained" as mentioned, then black/white goes off from each motor to the relevant switch on the panel.

[Flashbang]

Hi Andy
Your right-hand wiring diagram is correct.
However, the red and green wires stop at the point motor.

As I suggest initially unscrew the motor and let it hang by its wires, then check to see if it operates over and back correctly.

Seeps are notorious for needing to be 100% correctly fitted. The motor needs to be exactly in line across the point and directly under the points moving tie bar. It also needs to be held centred and the point held central too when the motor is fitted to the baseboard. Any off central fixings will cause poor or no operation one way!

As for the wire, it needs to be 16/0.2mm not so called 'Layout wire' as sold by many model shops which is in fact the smaller 7/0.2 wire size.
To check - Take a spare piece and carefully strip off a small length of the insulation. Now count the individual wires inside. 7 strands and it will be the smaller 7/0.2mm. 16 strands and its the larger and correct 16/0.2mm wire.

[andy757]

Thanks for the reply.

The red and green are actually black and white on the layout and I'd be right in saying these two wires go from the motor to the switch yes ?

I will try and test the motor hanging lose from the board hopefully tomorrow.

[Flashbang]

Thanks for the reply.

The red and green are actually black and white on the layout and I'd be right in saying these two wires go from the motor to the switch yes ?

I will try and test the motor hanging lose from the board hopefully tomorrow.

Hi Andy
So long as you use the same colours it doesn't matter what the insulation colours are. Its the size of the wire inside that more important.

Yes, motor to the switches outer tags for the two coil feed wires.....
Seep 'A' terminal to point switches one ends (outer) tag.
Seep 'B' terminal to the same point switch other end tag.
Seep 'C' terminal to the CDU negative output terminal.
CDU positive output terminal to all point switches central tags.

Edit to add..
Wiring...
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z311/Flash_bang/Seepwiring.jpg

[andy757]

As you can see from the CDU diagram, it is numbered 1,2,3,4 and not +/- etc so for the sake of clarity, can you (excuse the pun) point me to +/- against the numbers ?

[Flashbang]

As you can see from the CDU diagram, it is numbered 1,2,3,4 and not +/- etc so for the sake of clarity, can you (excuse the pun) point me to +/- against the numbers ?

What make is the CDU please?

So long as you know which two are the output pair of terminals from the four, it doesn't really matter which is + and -.

[andy757]

How will I know the output pair of terminals, there is no guide other than the diagram I posted earlier. I took the output as being 1,2 because 3, 4 come from the controller/transformer.

I got the CDU from ebay, item number 230744987474 and photo attached with description as follows:

A COMPREHENSIVE MODULE DESIGNED TO OPERATE SOLENOID TYPE POINT MOTORS OVERCOMING

THEIR DISADVANTAGE, THAT THEY REQUIRE A MOMENTARY BURST OF HIGH POWER TO OPERATE.


THE TYPE OF POINT MOTORS THE HCD1 WILL WORK IS PECO, SEEP, H&M, NEW TYPE HORNBY ETC.

THIS MODULE DELIVERS POWERFUL PULSE TO MOVE THE STIFFEST OF POINT MOTORS.

FAST RECHARGING FOR RAPID OPERATION

CURRENT LIMITING - WILL NOT BURN OUT POINT MOTOR

IT INCORPORATES OVER LOAD PROTECTION AGAINST SHORT CIRCUITS.

ONLY ONE CAPACITOR DISCHARGE UNIT IS REQUIRED FOR A LAYOUT.

THE HCD1 WILL OPERATE UP TO SIX POINTS AT ONCE IF REQUIRED.

IT IS SUITABLE FOR ROUTE SETTING AND IS RECOMMENDED

FOR PECO POINT MOTORS FITTED WITH ACCESSORY SWITCHES.

[andy757]

ok, dropped the motor from the board and tested it wired up. It throws only one way. I then connected a motor on the test bench exactly as per the motor on the board, and it worked fine.

[Flashbang]

Hi Andy
Sorry the CDU description and picture don't help much!
Wasn't there any wiring sheet with it showing which connection terminal is for what?
But further investigation shows it to be a Railroom Electronics CDU But their isnt any more info on their actual web site. Link to RR site (http://www.rail-room-electronics.co.uk/)


As your motor isn't throwing one way when on the layout it has to be one of several possibilities or a combination of them.

Here are some possibilities..
1) Wiring is incorrect on the Seep. Solder the wire connections onto Seeps 'A' and 'B' these wires are from the point switch. 'C' is to one output terminal on the CDUs output. (The other output terminal on the CDU goes to all the switches central tags.)

2) Broken wire between switch and motor.

3) Bad soldered joint on the switches outer tag or at the motor

4) CDU isn't working at all and full power isn't reaching the motors coil.

5) Defective coil or internal wire connection on the Seep itself.

[andy757]

Hi

I have soldered the wires on each point motor as per the test motor on the bench, and in accordance with the SEEP diagram that came with the motors.

The diagram that came with the CDU is attached. Thats all there was with it.

Of your listed possibilities, item 1 isn't relevant as I know the wires are soldered correctly on to the motor (same as test motor).

Item 2, unlikely as it's new wire.

Item 3, solder joints look ok to me, clean and not interfering with other connections.

Item 4 - how can I check if it's not working ?

Item 5, unlikely as I have tried several motors so are they all faulty ?

Your input is great and helps me understand the problem although I don't understand the problem (if you see what I mean) :D

What I don't get is if I take a motor from under the board and rig it up as a test on the bench, it works. The gap for the pin to move is large enough so nothing is stopping the movement of the pin.

[Flashbang]

Hi
I have emailed Ade at Railroom for the wiring of the CDU, at the time not realising the drawing you posted was theirs anyway!
I thought it was one you had produced yourself!

From their sheet then, so long as you have the input supply - 16v to 24v ac on terminals 3 & 4 and the switch central tags wired to 1 (I suspect this is the positive) the motors returns all go back to terminal 2.

I'd be surprised if the CDU isn't working ok.
You are allowing a couple of second to elapse between each point switch operation? i.e. move point one way. Wait 2 or more seconds then attempt to move it the opposite way on the switch.

For info, the easiest way to prove a CDU isn't working is to remove it from circuit and feed the ac supply directly to the switches and motor. But the 16v to 24v power supply needs to be around 1.0Amp output at least.\

Modified the drawing for your point motor and switch..

[andy757]

Thank you.

So if I see this correctly, from C on the SEEP, this goes to number 2 on the CDU, A + B to the top/bottom terminals on the switch ? Number 1 then feeds the centre of the switch. I have 16v going from the controller to numbers 3+4 on the CDU. Thats how I have it wired and as I said, on the test bench, works fine but not at the board.

I'm not normally quick at giving up but as electrics are not my best topic, I may just do so soon. As I see it though, I haven't wired anything wrong.

[Flashbang]

Thank you.

So if I see this correctly, from C on the SEEP, this goes to number 2 on the CDU, Yes. A + B to the top/bottom terminals on the switch ? Yes. Number 1 then feeds the centre of the switch. Yes. I have 16v going from the controller to numbers 3+4 on the CDU. Thats correct. Thats how I have it wired and as I said, on the test bench, works fine but not at the board.

I'm not normally quick at giving up but as electrics are not my best topic, I may just do so soon. As I see it though, I haven't wired anything wrong.

Hi Andy
Replies in red next to your statements.

Dont give up. Its something very simple and when you find it and correct it you'll be very pleased with yourself!

You hinted you have wired more than one point motor to the switches.
If so are you sure you haven't accidentally swapped around two feed wires so as one wire on one motor is connecting to the other motors switch, on one side only??

If that's proved not the case, then may I suggest a second test...

With the motor removed from the baseboard, but still wired and hanging down. Power up the 16 v ac supply to the CDU. Test the required point switch both ways with a pause between operations. Does the motor still only move one way? If so, we now need to prove the switch isn't defective......
Take a short piece of wire (About 25mm long) and strip about 5mm of insulation from both ends and twist up each ends wires to make then a solid wire. Make the wire into a U shape. Now with the power still on, dab the link wire between the appropriate switches central tag and one of its outer tags. The motor should operate as soon as the wire link is connecting the two tags. Immediately remove the link and then do the same central tag to the switches other outer tag. Again the motor should operate.
If it does work both ways the switch is defective.
If the motor doesn't move at all either way or only moves one way then the wiring is wrong switch to motor or the motor itself is defective.

[alfaz-di-pi]

Hi Andy /Flashbang, it sounds as though something strange is going on. I'm assuming that the switch on the testbed and the switch for the track are different switches. If so you are possibly correct about a faulty switch on the track, as the switch to the test is throwing both ways. Do not give up Andy, sleep on it if you must, but stick with it.
Albert.

[andy757]

Hi Albert

I have 13 point motors in total, plus 2 or 3 spare. One of the spares was rigged up as test so as to ensure I got the wiring theory correct. It worked perfectly well in both directions. Thus, that motor and switch on the panel work as expected.

I then moved the wiring logic to the underside of the board to point number 1 but the point throws only in one direction. Thinking maybe the motor is at fault (and they were bought new some months ago), I selected point 13 at the opposite side of the layout. Wired as per test bed logic, point throws in only one direction.

I then went back to the test bed, wired again as per instructions and it works fine in both directions.

There is a large enough hole under the point for the motor pin to travel freely, so no obstruction there.

So what I have proved on the layout so far is that the wiring logic is correct, 2 different point motors work (and when wires are switched round at the actual switch, they throw in the opposite direct). This means they work as designed to but not as intended if you see what I mean. The test bed works fine also, so thats 3 motors working. I have used different switches on the panel and came to the conclusion they also work.

However, combine the switch with the motor on the layout, and the point throws only in one direction.

To make sure I have the correct gauge wire, can someone point me in the direction of a web site etc where I can buy new stock. I will need red/black/red so as to keep colour coding correct. Buying new stock means I will then eliminate any possible problem with existing wire. Although unlikely, as this current wire was new only a few months ago, I will start again with brand new wire stock.

[Flashbang]

<Snip>
To make sure I have the correct gauge wire, can someone point me in the direction of a web site etc where I can buy new stock. I will need red/black/red so as to keep colour coding correct. Buying new stock means I will then eliminate any possible problem with existing wire. Although unlikely, as this current wire was new only a few months ago, I will start again with brand new wire stock.


Its not the newness of the wires (Mine can be 10 years or more old) its having the correct minimum conductor wire size. :)

Peco sell 16/0.2mm wire in 7Mtr long packs. Peco part number PL38 Should be available through all Peco model railway stockiest. Example of PL38 (http://www.thesignalbox.co.uk/index_new.php?page=35&pg=3&p_cat_id=70&sub_cat_id=&sub_cat2_id=)

Maplin in 10Mtr lengths or 100Mtr rolls (They have a lot of High St shops) Maplin link (http://www.maplin.co.uk/equipment-wire-16-0.2-6197) Called "Equipment Wire (16/0.2)". Maplin tend to rather expensive though!

Rapid sell it on 100Mtr rolls but they add P & P for orders under £30.00 exclusive of VAT. Rapid link (http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/16-0-2mm-Equipment-wire-plain-colours-62322/?sid=01eea71e-c7b1-49bc-86e3-e41d7b19ea65)

Or from ebay suppliers. ebay examples (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=Equipment+wire+16%2F0.2mm&_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C 72%253A6003&rt=nc&_dmpt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=2&_sc=1)


Why don't you take a new and unfitted motor and then temporarily wire it to the first panel switch you are testing. Having first removed the original two outer wires only. (Leave the central wire). Connect the test motors 'C' wire to the CDU terminal 2.
Then once power is applied the panel switch will should move the point motor over and back correctly.
If all is OK then it has to be - wiring or motor failure or binding causing the layout problem.

[andy757]

Thanks Flashbang. I'll try the test you mention.

I ordered some wire from Maplin as I have an account with them :)

[andy757]

What I am going to do is not rely on the "daisy chain" for the live feed. Instead, I will take all 3 ends at each motor and run each round to the panel switches. This way, I know each motor is joined to it's own switch and not interfered with by any other lead.

One question though, when I get to the panel, I know the tails need to be soldered to the top/bottom of each switch but instead of taking each live lead from the motor to the switch, can I have them all meet up in a block and then one wire run from the block to the CDU ?

[Flashbang]

What I am going to do is not rely on the "daisy chain" for the live feed. Instead, I will take all 3 ends at each motor and run each round to the panel switches. This way, I know each motor is joined to it's own switch and not interfered with by any other lead.

One question though, when I get to the panel, I know the tails need to be soldered to the top/bottom of each switch but instead of taking each live lead from the motor to the switch, can I have them all meet up in a block and then one wire run from the block to the CDU ?

Hi Andy,
On the point motor return wires, then yes you can connect them all together into one terminal block or have several blocks with wires from the motor returns in one side and then wire links terminal to terminal and one wire back to the CDU terminal.

Like this...

[andy757]

Thanks again. That's what I'll do then.

Each individual point motor wired back to the switch it corresponds with and power leads into one block and one lead into the CDU.

If that does not work, I will for sure give up.

[andy757]

Update:

1st point motor wired AND throws perfectly :):):)

Flashbang and all, thank you for the feedback and assistance. 12 points to go :eek:

[alfaz-di-pi]

Glad to hear it Andy, any idea what the problem was.

Albert.

[Robotstar5]

Good to hear you sorted it - got there in the end :)

[andy757]

At a guess, broken connection with the 16v "daisy chain" feed and/or motor alignment. Combination of both I suspect.

Wired in 8 points today, all satisfactory :)

Back ache now and anyway, need to order some more male/female connector blocks and 4 more point switches. Oh, I also need a surface mounted motor as one point sits right above the joists :mad:

[andy757]

here we go again :D

How do I wire in the PECO PL11 surface mounted point motor ? I assume red lead to 16v supply and the other 2 leads to the remaining connectors on the switch ? If so, the one I've just bought doesn't work :mad:

[Flashbang]

Hi
Peco use..
Red and Black to the point switch.
Green to the return connection.

[andy757]

there's logic there somewhere :D

Cheers, I'll try that.

[Flashbang]

there's logic there somewhere :D

Cheers, I'll try that.

Ha ha!!!

Note for reference...
Peco PL11 uses..
Red and Black to the point switch.
Green to the return connection.


Hornby use..
Red and Green to the point switch.
Black to the return connection.


Nothing like having a standard!!!!!

[andy757]

well the motor I've been sold doesn't work when wired like that. In fact, it just don't work with any combo !!

[Flashbang]

Hi
If they are Peco PL11 surface mounting motors then they are connected as I stated above.
Red and Black to the switch.
Green to the return (negative) connection on the CDU.

Think of the wires of the PL11 to be the same as to your Seeps. So Peco Red is 'A'. Peco Black is 'B' and Peco Green is 'C'.

These motors must be fitted very carefully and do ensure they are not pulled down by their fixings.

[Tricky Dicky]

Hi all

I intend using Peco PL-10 turnout motors and because I need frog switching, switching of LEDs in a panel and also provide feedback for an accessory decoder. I am thinking of using a single switch to operate a relay to provide the above switching. The switch I am considering is the PL-13, however I am modelling in N-gauge and I was wondering why Peco only rate it suitable for 00 and larger scales?

Richard

[Flashbang]

Hi all
<Snip>
The switch I am considering is the PL-13, however I am modelling in N-gauge and I was wondering why Peco only rate it suitable for 00 and larger scales?

Richard
Hi
I suspect there is insufficient throw (movement) for the switch to change-over correctly with N gauge?

If you use a CDU or dc to operate the point motors you could use a 12 volt latching relay. Wired so as the pulse to one coil latches the relay. It remains latched until the opposite coil is operated which causes the relay to unlatch.
Then via its contacts whatever is switched.

[Tricky Dicky]

Hi Flashbang

I suspected the throw might be the reason. I will not be using a CDU, I am currently experimenting with a Lenz LS100 accessory decoder and it looks like I will have to go with the more expensive twin microswitch kit PL-15.

Thanks
Richard

[andy757]

on the PL11, I got this message from a guy who sells them:

OK from point motor Black goes to - 16V AC on controller + 16V AC goes with extra wire to centre terminal on switch - red & green from point motor go to other 2 terminals on switch.

Different to what Flashbang mentioned :confused:

[Flashbang]

on the PL11, I got this message from a guy who sells them:

OK from point motor Black goes to - 16V AC on controller + 16V AC goes with extra wire to centre terminal on switch - red & green from point motor go to other 2 terminals on switch.

Different to what Flashbang mentioned :confused:
Why don't you connect them exactly as I have stated?

I'm amazed how many times I have stated the way you need to wire them and pointed out a web sites drawings showing everything really you need.

I clearly stated Red and Black wires on a Peco PL11 are to the switches two outer tags
Green wire is to the CDUs negative. (No 2 terminal on your CDU when viewed with the terminals at the bottom)

You are not using the 16 volt ac directly to feed the motor. You are using it to feed into a CDU where the 16volt ac (could be as high as 24volts ac) is feed too and then converted to dc and released as a powerful pulse of power when any one point switches connect a motor in circuit.

Last time now, cos I feel I'm not being taken seriously.

Here is the very basic wiring for a Peco PL11 using a CDU and the points operated by sprung to centre off toggle switches. Note: I have shown in brackets on the CDU the terminal numbers as per your own CDU.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z311/Flash_bang/PL11wiring.jpg

[andy757]

I am taking you seriously Flashbang but I think you need a chill pill (that is meant in good taste).

You are immensley helpful and to be honest, being someone who is learning about electrics, you are incredibly helpful to me. I was merely mentioning what appears to be nonsense from the other guy who sold it to me and no reflection on what you had suggested.

I have wired it as per your drawing and it doesn't work so it's not the drawing (or you) at fault, it's the motor.

I was going to ask how to wire up two point motors together (as laid out on the attached) so they throw together via one switch but I think maybe I shouldn't ask Flashbang any more questions for a while ;)

[Flashbang]

Hi
No problem.
I have been wiring point motors for the last 50 odd years. I started when Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang were the two main UK model railway manufactures.

Is your PL11 working when its removed from the point and is laying on the baseboard? If so then its binding when fitted.
If not, its possibly wired incorrectly or may be faulty? Ensure Red and Black wires are to its point switch and the Green wire is to the return connection place which then goes to your CDU No 2 terminal.

The cross-over pair of points are wired exactly like two sets of points, but only one switch is used. - Two wires on the switch outer tags - each tag then has two wires, one to each motor both wires on each tag are the same colour. Common from each motor connect together and then to the CDUs Negative (Terminal 2) connection.

[andy757]

I shall try the PL11 again tomorrow but it wasn't working even when placed on the test bed. The bloke is sending me another motor so I'll try that wired as you mention.

Thanks for the wiring instruction for the cross-over. I have 2 cross-overs but have already wired them individually but no great problem to undo.

[andy757]

Update !

Amended the control panel to facilitate 15 point switches, made some adjustments to the wiring, and all 15 point motors are now wired in and working fine. This includes another PL11 which the guy sent me so his first one was duff.

So, I thought I'd move on to lighting. Got as far as wiring up the 12v supply to the signal box and buffer stops (2 seperate switches) and both worked fine via their own switch. Then after a tea break, both don't work. So I rigged up a spare buffer stop lamp direct to the 12v supply (2 leads) and it too doesn't work.

Would the 12v supply just pack up like that or do you think there is something more sinister going on ??

[Robotstar5]

Would the 12v supply just pack up like that or do you think there is something more sinister going on ??

Has a fuse blown? either on the input or output side of the 12V transformer.

With all this fault finding, it might be worth investing in a cheap multimeter, Maplins do them for less than a tenner - it's a handy bit of kit to keep in the toolbox.

[andy757]

I use a Hornby controller for my 12v supply like the attached. I assumed it would be ok to use. I changed the mains power pack that feeds it and lights are still dead. The controller is sealed so how do I know if a fues has blown or not ?

Is there a better alternative to using this type of 12v supply ??

[Robotstar5]

Look at the writing on the back of the power pack, if it has something like "output 12 volt DC" or a solid line over a dotted line just cut the plug off and use that to power the lights. Conventionally the wire with a white tracer (stripe) is positive and the plain wire 0V (negative).

I put "12 volt power supply" into fleabay and there are hundreds of choices, although I would advise against a CB power supply as they are stabilised at 13.8 volts so may be a bit high.

[alfaz-di-pi]

Hi Andy, I am not sure of the rating for that type of controller, but I do know that it stops working if you overload it, or if it gets a short. it usually resets itself after some time, but perhaps this time it hasn't for you. I have not been inside one so do not know if there is a fuse inside or not. I have a feeling there is not as there would be access to get inside to change the fuse, if it had one, and there is no access. I used a small transformer of 9volts and 1500miliamps for my lights, it seemed to work ok.

Albert.

[Flashbang]

Hi
The wall plug-in transformer is a C990 and is rated at 16 volts ac at 800 milliamp.
The controller itself converts the ac into dc and has a variable output on its 'Track' connection wires. Nominally 0 to 12 volts dc depending on the speed knobs setting.
However, these units are very basic and can often output anything between 17 and 20 volts dc at switch on and under no load or little loading!
The controller also has a pair of 'uncontrolled ac' output 16volt ac screw terminals which can feed a CDU for point operation etc.

[Paul Blackpool]

Hi Andy
You could even use a 12 volt bell transformer which usually has an easily replacable 1 Amp mains fuse for a few lights . I used on of these to power a "railway clock" (Full size) and then used simple circuit kit from Maplin to step this down and rectify it to 1.2 volts DC although all this costs money but I am quite interested in the electrical side. I cut through a live mains flex. with scissors as a lad (DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME) and lived to tell the tale - so I understand and have a healthy respect for electricity.
The suggestion to buy a multi meter was a good one.
Regards Paul

[andy757]

Thanks for the input.

So I could use something like the attached, cut off the connector and link the wires into a multi connector. Would that be enough ?

[Paul Blackpool]

A Bell transformer is a proper heavy transformer that model railway applications normally used.
What you show in your last photo is a switched power supply which are not normally used for model railways. I won't go into technical deatils but the one with a proper transformer is heavy for its size and aswitched one is lighter. In fact some mobile phone chargers which are switched units hardly weigh anything and are much cheaper to produce. That said I see no reason why youy can't use one tp power a few low voltage lights providing the output is definately dc not ac and the voltage is set to match the voltage of your bulbs and you don't exceed the power of the unit in amps or milliamps. However these units frequently run very hot I suspect because there are no ventilation holes for safety reasons so don't leave it on unattended.
Paul

[Flashbang]

Thanks for the input.

So I could use something like the attached, cut off the connector and link the wires into a multi connector. Would that be enough ?
Hi Andy
The power supply shown is ideal for all your layout lighting needs.
It provides a selectable output voltage which is dc and can deliver up to 1.5Amps (1500ma). You can select and use a lower voltage than the 12 volt normally used if wished. Though 12 volts dc is equally ok.

As for the moulded plug you have two options...
1) Cut off the plug and connect the two wires to something like a twi way terminal block
Or
2) Leave the plug and choose one tip and obtain a chassis mounting matching dc socket which can fitted into the side/rear of your panel. Maplin sell them for about £2.00.

[andy757]

Hi Flashbang

So just to confirm, the attached is fine for my lighting needs yes ? Sorry, I posted two photos, one Hornby and the other one. I'm referring now to the non Hornby.

I saw this on the Rapid site, any good ?

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Mini-Regulated-Voltage-Adjustable-Psu-85-1683/?sid=495f9e36-7a58-4e03-84c5-26142f78b776

[Flashbang]

The Rapid one is also ok, but a little less power (current) output then the pictured one.
Rapid one is 1.0Amp (1000ma) while the pictured one is 1.5Amp (1500ma)
Either would be fine for most lighting use. Especially if LEDs are used.
Don't forget rapid price needs VAT adding (Tick the VAT included box at the top right of the page) and you'll need to add their P & P charges too.
Similar unit from ebay...ebay link (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AC-DC-Power-Supply-PSU-Adaptor-Plug-Universal-Multi-Volt-3-12V-1000Ma-1A-/251025896916?pt=UK_ConsumerElectronics_PowerAdapto rs_SM&hash=item3a724f35d4)

[andy757]

Nice one, thanks very much. Forgive my ignorance, but which side of the lead is + and - ?? I shall maybe cut the plug off the end or as you mentioned before, get a chassis mounting but I don't have a clue what I'm look for with that.

[Flashbang]

Impossible to tell which wire is Positive. It would have to be tested.

This is a 2.5mm dc chassis socket... Maplin dc socket (http://www.maplin.co.uk/single-hole-fixing-2.5mm-dcsocket-1416)
One of the PSUs adaptors fits directly into it.

[andy757]

Thanks again. I feel like I should repay you somehow !

Out of interest, that socket has 3 tails. Why ??

[Flashbang]

Thanks again. I feel like I should repay you somehow !

Out of interest, that socket has 3 tails. Why ??

If you read the question asked in 'Questions' tab you will see the Maplin reply - Use either of two they are the a same. The other tag connects to the central pin. When viewed it becomes more obvious.

[andy757]

yes read that after I posted, many thanks for the help so far.

Cracking on with it all........

[Robotstar5]

Forgive my ignorance, but which side of the lead is + and - ?? I shall maybe cut the plug off the end or as you mentioned before, get a chassis mounting but I don't have a clue what I'm look for with that.

Convention is the wire with the white tracer (stripe) is + and the plain one is - but it's best to confirm with a tester/meter, important if using LED lighting!

[andy757]

Convention is the wire with the white tracer (stripe) is + and the plain one is - but it's best to confirm with a tester/meter, important if using LED lighting!

I assume the logics inside the connector will work out +/- correctly :confused:

I have bought these (with some other bits to make postage costs worth while) http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Mini-Regulated-Voltage-Adjustable-Psu-85-1683 and http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Dc-Power-Socket-2-5mm-20-1098 and won't be cutting the end off the PSU obviously. 12v supply to the centre tag and the - wire to one of the other tags. I assume therefore that I would be safe to make up a connector block and take the - ends from each switch and connect to the block ?

Each lamp switch is "daisy chained" with 12v supply.

[Flashbang]

Hi Andy,
The plug-on dc connector tips on most of these PSUs can be swapped around through 180 degrees. Thereby transferring the positive from the inside to the outside of the tube connector.
I have, once I determined which way around gave me the correct positive, used a white marker to draw a line across the side of the adaptor joint to its plug (I used a correction fluid pen). Then if the two items are ever accidentally parted the line is simply matched and ensures a correct way around every time.

If you don't own a mutimeter (excellent model railway tool and for home use too). Then get a LED and solder a 1K0 (1000 OHM) resistor to the LEDs longer lead. If possible slip a length of heat shrink tubing over the LEDs soldered lead and the resistors body leaving about 5mm free at the end. This would prevent accidental touching together of the LEDs wires.The free wire end of the resistor is a Positive and the free shorter lead of the LED is negative. So you now have a very simple tester. To prove a supply is present and which is its positive on a dc supply use the LED/resistor. When the LED lights on a dc supply the resistors free wire is showing the positive supply to its negative.

Watch out on ac power supplies 16 volt etc as the LED will light either way around. But it is a visual indication that power is at the place being tested.

LED wired like this...

[freebs]

OK, I know I'm completely flummoxed now :)

[Flashbang]

OK, I know I'm completely flummoxed now :)

By what exactly?

[freebs]

Hehe - all this talk of multimeters and testers - determining + from -. I've not got a very logical brain, so it'll take me a while to take all this in - I'm reading with interest, as I've got all this to come - but I must admit, it sounds a bit intimidating. I think I've got my head round the basic power wiring - next to tackle is the points motors - but I was thinking it'd be a simple matter of just wiring in to the accessories port on the old Gaugemaster...

[andy757]

So, fitted the DC power socket to the mothership and now to set about soldering the necessary leads and making up the connector strip.

Daunted ???? Maybe......just a bit but I'll have a go :rolleyes:

[andy757]

Whilst the current layout is up for sale, I'm looking ahead to the next project, this time in N gauge.

Not 100% connected to the wiring problems before, but can someone explain in plain english terms, the difference between Insulfrog and Electrofrog points.
I want the very least amount of wiring to worry about when it comes to points.

The design of the new layout is not even under way yet but I need to get clear in my head which points to buy when the time comes.

[Flashbang]

I don't know about "Plain English' as you're talking about points and electrical feeds! Bit like trying to explain how an aircraft is able to fly!! You can't do it without some technical items / terminology being involved.

Insulated frog... The frog area of the point is made of Plastic. The two V rails after the frog are switched with rail power by the points moving switch rail blades. So one route direction is powered (Thats the direction with the point blade closed onto its mating stock rail) and the other route direction is electrically dead.

Poor running is often encountered especially where small wheeled (0-4-0 or 0-6-0) locos are moved across the point at slow speed. If used on DCC they need to have the self isolating feature removed.

Live Frog or Electrofrog.... The frog area is made from the V rails being filed to a fine V shape and no plastic is used as an insulator between the two V rail.
Both V rails are continually powered via the moving switch rail, it touching the appropriate stock rail and collecting power. Live frog points should be fitted with two Insulated Rail Joiners (IRJs) onto the ends of the two V rails or short will occur where track feeds are placed further along after the points.
These points offer the very best possible power transfer to the locos pick-up wheels and are especially useful where slow speed moves are important.

As before, I'll refer you to the internet where several model railway web sites have examples of both types and details on how they operate and are wired etc.
Example and there are many others...Link to point types (http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.htm#Points)